In the latest episode of Demand Gen Chat, I spoke with Sidney Waterfall, VP of Demand at Refine Labs. The agency works with growth-stage B2B SaaS companies and puts out a ton of content sharing their learnings. We cover some topics that have been all over LinkedIn feeds lately; dark social and how to use it to drive demand, and how marketers can actually use all the data you collect from self-reported attribution to make business decisions.
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About Demand Gen Chat
Demand Gen Chat is a Chili Piper podcast hosted by Tara Robertson. Join us as we sit down with B2B marketing leaders to hear about the latest tactics and campaigns that are driving pipeline and revenue. If you’re looking for tactical ways to improve your marketing, this podcast is for you!
Welcome back to demand gen chat I'm your host, Tara Robertson, really excited to have everyone listening today and very excited to introduce our special guests for today. So I'm joined today by Sidney waterfall. Sidney is the VP of demand generation at refined labs, a demand accelerator for B2B SAS companies, Sidney.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Yeah, of course, happy to be here. Big fan of the podcasts, listen to it. So I'm happy to be
on it now. Great. And we're huge fans of everything. Content-wise that fine labs puts out. So really excited to have you. And why don't you tell us a little bit about your role at refine labs and what customers come to you for help with?
Yeah. So refined labs, um, we help customers kind of get off the MQL hamster wheel and really deploy a demand gen strategy. Um, across their entire go to market good rocket engine. So we work primarily with B2B, SAS customers, um, anywhere from, you know, series B on up, and really helped them transform going from MQL to qualified pipeline, which we call hero pipeline as their main KPI and ultimately driving, um, quarter over quarter increase in hero pipeline, and ultimately.
Um, and so we do that by following a lot of the tactics that you see refined labs doing, but also deploying paid media and consulting on a wide variety of, uh, high intent, um, topics for, uh, for our clients. So that's a little bit broad, but find labs and me specifically. Um, as a VP here, um, I manage some of our account teams.
So that'd be, um, our directors and perms marketers that manage clients. I help them, uh, with strategy and I'm really focused on client strategy and making sure we're customizing our refined labs, playbooks to the customer's business and looking at, um, how we can drive long-term growth for our clients.
Great. I'm really interested in the pipeline piece specifically because we are huge believers in the not tracking vanity metrics, not focusing on MQL is kind of that whole story we're bought in on that actually Pfeiffer. But I'm curious if there's any other top of funnel metrics that you do recommend that customers look at?
Yeah. I definitely look at MQL. We define an MQL as a high intent conversion, so that's going to be. You know, a demo requests are your main conversion point, someone coming to your website, um, and asking to talk to someone from the company about your product. So normally it's a demo. It could be a pricing, contact us, you know, whatever you label it, that that's the metric that we look at is how many of those are we getting per month by all, all channels.
Um, and then how are those converting throughout the pipeline? Um, so how many meetings are being booked and then from that, how many, um, what we call a hero opportunity, which is a high intent revenue opportunity, really what that means as you know, every company defines an opportunity and when they create an opportunity and stages differently.
So we like to kind of streamline that as, um, an opportunity that converts to revenue at a 25% or greater win rate. So. No one in four of those deals are going to close. So we have confidence in those closing. Um, so that's what we call as a hero. A lot of people will call us SQO, have a bunch of different names for it.
Uh, but we like to standardize that. And then, you know, a lot of the other metrics that we're we're looking at, um, you know, are going to be, I would say key indicators or things we monitor, but they're not main KPIs for our clients. And for that, we measure ourselves internally on success of how we doing with this.
So, you know, we look at obviously our demo conversion rates, uh, we're just monitoring and understanding site traffic. Uh, we don't really look at clicks from paid media, or we have a very different viewpoint on how to deploy paid media. We're going for consumption and engagement, um, in the feed, which usually leads to less clicks directly off the platform, but more engagement educations.
Um, and then obviously in other more captured demand channels, which would be, um, you know, your review sites or your paid search, um, you know, we're, we're monitoring conversions in there because we're only optimizing and monitoring high intent conversions.
Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. And do you help your customers figure out what that hero opportunity looks like for them?
Because a one in four close rate sounds great to me, but I'm sure it's a little tough to get there.
Yeah, it's different for every client. The sexually a part of the work that we've been doing the last couple of months, uh, with our clients is, you know, for one client opportunity create meeting booked for another client opportunity create is like after the second demo and they've got pricing out.
So those two things are going to convert and have very different, um, different everybody has their own sales cycle and, um, Partnership with sales of like, what, what is the, when do AEs create opportunities and all that? So we actually look at all their opportunity data. We look at the stage history, we're looking at what, at what stage for them does it hit that threshold?
And then we say, boom, okay. For you. So like Chili Piper, your stage X, um, is going to be you, maybe it's your stage three or your stage two. I would say assuming a six stage six stages in your. And your, um, opportunity stage model, the assume six or five to six, it's normally stage three that we find that converts consistently, um, to, uh, 25%, um, to revenue.
And that's specifically like demo requests as well. Like we're looking at that high intent pipeline and not necessarily. Trade show leads or something like that, or we're looking at a very specific section of that. Yeah, just the
but yeah, just the fundraisers. Yeah. And like, what are those conversion rates?
Great. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. So kind of the opposite spectrum of hand raisers is, um, just along the topic of dark, social or dark. We're calling it kind of both these days, but I'm really curious what, from your perspective, how you tie kind of that data driven approach of knowing one in four of these types of ops can close to working with customers and getting them to do more on the dark social side of things, because those are obviously very different approaches, but you kind of need both to win in marketing today.
So just curious how you approach that with a new customer.
Yeah. I think the concept of dark social and. It's how buyers consume information on the internet and it can not be tracked by, um, as you know, you guys do a lot of great dark social this podcast, right. And I've seen your videos, um, clipped and I've even seen them in ads.
Uh, I've seen them just on organic. Um, I know that you guys are also very involved in communities, different slack communities, things like that. All of that's dark, social sharing information, peer to peer, um, that can not be tracked. So a lot of the channels I just mentioned, but even word of mouth, um, even, you know, ad hoc meetups, like a lot of people will just like, go meet up.
That's going to be, you know, uh, kind of a word of mouth channel. So now what really drives. The high intent. Hand-raisers like learning about you understanding your product and coming back to your website and knowing your brand, knowing the brand even come, come to first is going to be, how do you educate people in those channels that they're in?
And a lot of people don't because they can't track it, you know? Well, we want the click or we want, we need to be on this channel and do this activity because I need to show success. So if you move your metrics of success and you're only looking at pipeline, you're allowed, you know, you're not handcuffed, you're allowed to, because you're not handcuffed to how many clicks you're driving to the website or how many, uh, form bills you're getting from that campaign.
You're then free to actually market and push out content. People are consuming it. And then where it's shareable, like, think about slack. Like how many times am I like sent, Hey, this ad's really cool or this product's awesome. Or, um, that's just how people share, share these days. So when we move the metric for success and we can reframe the funnel for people, especially our clients.
And they're more engaged to run programs like that. Um, and so we helped consult on like, Hey, you should be doing this and let's stand some of this up. And even though we're not actually executing on like their organic strategy or their, you know, event strategy or something, there's a lot of content we can do that drives that.
It's funny that you brought up word of mouth. Cause I've brought dark social app to a few marketer, friends, just kind of locally, just here and there. And a couple of them have said, well, isn't that just word of mouth? Like, what's the, what's the big deal about dark social? And like, from my perspective, at least I think the differences in B2B marketing, we pretended that we could track everything or we tried to track everything and dark social is kind of us saying, you know what?
We actually can't do that. So here's what we're going to call it and label it something new. But I'm curious if you ever run into that feedback from people that, Hey, this isn't really anything new. It's just word of mouth.
No, and I think that the difference is, uh, the distribution and like, for example, I think dark, social, uh, Fuels word of mouth.
Like there's other things that are word of mouth. Like I listed, for example, like meeting up with a coworker or peer and talking about a solution that's like pure word of mouth. That's not necessarily dark, social, dark social is having LinkedIn DM conversations. Like how did I get on this podcast? Like, right.
Like, Hey, do you want to come on this podcast? I'm like, yeah, sure. Um, you know, that's a dark social what's happening in social. Um, so I would say. You know, even, you know, personal posts that I post on social that people just view, but they don't like or engage with, but they're consuming that information.
That's dark, social, and educating somebody about something who knows what I'm talking about. It depends on the day, probably obviously something related to marketing, um, most times, but. That's the difference between dark social and just word of mouth, word of mouth. There's other channels as well. And other avenues text message could be word of word of text.
you're getting cold texts, but yeah.
So I think, and if you're distributing video content, people are reading or listening to it. They're not clicking on it. They're just scrolling. That starts socially. You can't measure that you can't measure if that person came back to your website and converted,
Yeah, we have, we've tried to track some of this on slack. Like we'll just share screenshots, but the most probably marketing to marketers example I can think of is we have a great marketing channel on slack and pretty much every team marketing team I've been on has had in that. Kind of have a place to dump like, oh, I saw this great ad.
I saw this great and traction online, just so the other channels are a little bit less crazy. But, um, I got a screenshot from a friend of his great marketing channel and one of our blog posts was in it. So I shared that on our marketing channel and it's just like, there's no way we could possibly track that if that opportunity ever closed, but you're right.
It's not word of mouth. It's something slightly different. I think it's really cool that people are kind of putting a name on it and figuring out what we can do to drive
more of that. Yeah. And I think, you know, if you think about the funnel upgrade, we obviously refiled. So we talk about creating demand, capturing demand, like dark funnels, even above create demand.
It's like, how do you create demand? Do you need to be in dark social to get people into there then to drive them into intent and drive them into more capture channels? So that's kind of how I personally look at it, but yeah, we have a, we have an ad labs channel where we share really cool creative, cool ads, cool different things.
Our whole creative team shares, like all the, all the creatively produce for our clients, just so everybody can see the great work that they do. So, yeah, that's one of my favorite channels.
That's fine. Yeah. I love to poke around on those channels. Sometimes I have to mute them so I can go check in later, but it's great to stay out.
Um, since you mentioned creative, I'm curious because we've been undergoing a bunch of CRO work on our website. And I'm curious if you've ever seen any customers or if you've done any work on kind of integrating any kind of dark social campaigns that you're running, or just something specific that you're trying on offline channels.
If there is any way to optimize that for conversion, or if it's just something that you have to say, you know what, this is just a totally different goal, and we're not going to try to optimize that for.
Yeah. As your point about dark social, you can't optimize for a conversion because you're in the wrong intent mode.
You're then just doing it to get something out of it and to make dark social, and even just like content, uh, And pushing your brand out there, creating demand. You have to come at it from an angle where you're not expecting a direct conversion, or you're not even expecting something immediate. Like you just want people to consume it and possibly get like some qualitative feedback on it.
Um, but when it comes to like a website specific, like we have, um, we have implemented a lot across a lot of our customers. The, how did you hear about it? Uh, form field. And that has really been able for us to understand like the impact of the channels that they're on, that are dark. Um, and if those channels are resonating with people,
And you guys call that self-reported attribution, but I'm curious because we've started experimenting with that a little bit on our thank you pages. So I was personally very worried about our form conversion, so I didn't want to put it on our demo form. So we have it after the fact, if someone successfully gets through the.
But we're getting very minimal details from people. So I wonder if it is because they've already gone through this whole flow that they're kind of sick of giving us their information. Um, but I'm curious, what type of information do you get on a form like that or that your customer is getting.
So I'm not surprised that you're getting minimal information on the thank you page.
We've had probably four to five customers implement that the same way against our recommendation, which is fine, you know? Um, and then they later switched and just put it on the floor. So what we, you know, what we recommend is if you can just replace a field on your form, so. Yeah, we don't tell our clients to go out there and just, you know, start changing your main conversion point and seeing what's happening.
Right. It's bad advice. Right. We definitely like, we're like, okay, let's roll this out in AB tests for like two or three weeks just to ensure we're not, you know, something is, you know, tanking, the conversion rate. Um, all of my clients that have rolled it out, we roll it in a two to three week AB test. Um, you know, you're not going to get stat SIG, but you're not really looking for statistical significance.
You're looking to make sure it doesn't really drop the conversion rate, a noticeable amount that you might be uncomfortable with. Um, so phase one is always make it required a free tax. And if you can replace like job title, like, do you really need that right upfront? You could probably get that enrich that he's, uh, you know, data enrichment tool, like cognizant or something to enrich that, um, or you can get that information.
Um, you know, when you, when you get the meeting books, you know, hopefully the Chili Piper.
Um, but yeah, so we've tested that out and we don't see any, any, um, difference in conversion rates across a couple of different clients. We're actually hoping to publish some of that data soon. Cause it's the number one. Objection we get,
um, yeah, I'd love to hear more about that because I'm personally getting pushback on that.
We have an open field for it, but for me, it's kind of, if we give people a dropdown. Either the first option or just whatever comes to mind first. So yeah, I really pushed back and said, we need it to be open, but I'd love to see some of that data. I'm sure people listening would love to see that too.
So we, one of, one of the first clients that ever implemented this, it was a pick list. Um, and, you know, we map that all the way to the opportunity and close one. And, you know, at least they were doing it as better than nothing. We could definitely see some really cool trends. They had a podcast, right? They have all these things that they were doing.
And, um, over like 28% of their close one and over 35% of their, uh, qualified opportunities sent other. It's still not helpful. Right. And, um, so they actually like tested it, like, okay, well, what if we, you know, they're both required fields, one free text versus one picklist. Didn't see a difference in the conversion rate of, so I'm not going to tell you exactly what their conversion rates were, but I was their data, but didn't see a noticeable difference in their conversion rates over the time we AB test.
And now they're getting much more, um, enrich insightful. Um, and these are not marketers like these, you know, I feel like marketers might be a little bit more, you know, give you more information. Cause they're marketers.
Yeah, we get both ends of the spectrum. We get one word and then like an essay
you're like, let me tell you my multitouch 17 step journey in this field right here.
do we get everyone to do that?
Yeah, you're like kind of, how do I do this? So, I mean, for one of our clients, we launched a new channel and they told us exactly where on that channel, they saw the ad, it was wild. I was like, how do you even remember that? Um, some things where we get in and stuff, that's not even related to even some of the work that we do with the client, but it's so helpful.
So, um, Hey, I heard it from this, um, webinar. Wasn't even a sponsored webinar or anything. It was just something that they brand happened to get mentioned on. And now it's like, Hey, let's go. Maybe explore like some partnerships with that brand because of your audience is already there. Like that's a win, um, podcasts come through referrals.
Like, Hey, I heard you from this customer or I've heard you from. This community, you get like a lot more specific data, rather than social media. You're still going to get someone that says social media or web search. Right? And so typically we, we do, we roll that out. We let we gather data for about a month and then we do a month, like an analysis for our customers.
We take all that data free text form, and we kind of look at it and we start creating buckets for them based on what they are getting in their business. Not necessarily. The exact buckets we recommend based on our business. So like, if they don't have a podcast, they're probably not getting podcast submissions.
They don't need a bucket for that. Right. It's example. Um, and then we say, okay, here's how we're going to, here's the larger seven buckets. We're going to classify all these responses into, and then we create, um, a field, um, you know, Any marketing automation system can do it. We've helped customers with it.
You create kind of like a category fielder, bucketed field, and now every time that's automated and it gets into a bucketed field. So now you have, you can put that into your CRM. You have reports, right? That's a little bit more manageable to read, like social media events, community, whatever. Um, but you still have that core qualitative data.
That's the most insightful. Um, that can lead to a lot more better business decisions. And I mean, I was talking to a CFO yesterday and they said, I know that I can't show direct attribution to that, but I'm okay with that because when I go to my CEO and my C-suite like, I'm telling him, I'm hearing this from customers and I'm telling them, I know this is working because I'm hearing it directly from them.
And it just is like a little catch point in the whole journey. If, you know, that's all, you really need to justify that this is working. Um, and you know, and they have an attribution software that costs, I don't even know how long that we still look at, but she knows
take it with a grain. Doesn't always match up. Yeah. That's that was actually a good segue into my next topic, but I think that's a really great approach to getting buy-in on dark social. Cause that's one thing I've heard from a lot of people. I'm on board manager level. Everyone gets it. But once we go up to our VP or a COO, it's just a hard sell because they've really bought into our fancy automation tool, or they really want us to buy a fancy automation tool.
So bringing the self-reported data in there and showing them like, Hey, there's some gaps here and maybe we can try to marry those. But I'm curious from your perspective, I know you had a similar post on LinkedIn about not over-complicating attribution. With this in mind of trying to layer on the self-reported plus the attribution you already have, how would you approach that?
Knowing that there might be some hesitancy on the dark social side, and we're trying to make a case for that.
Yeah. Everyone's going to have the attribution, software or solution, you know, all the automation systems that you have already have one, and then you might even have the, another one to layer on top of it.
That's totally. You, I think, just have to understand that there's stuff that you cannot track that no technology can track. There's no product going to solve for it. And so you're like, okay, if you think about this logically, how do I understand what I can't track? How do I understand what's going on? Well, you could do that with the self-report attribution field.
You could ask your customers on gong calls. You can ask them after they've been customers. Like you can literally just ask. So that's a. Then you can understand, okay. Of all the other things, then I could track, how does that fit in? Um, and so that's kind of how I look at it, but when I simplify it, I mean, there's so many different attribution models that anyone can tweak any data to like make their department or their campaign, like.
It's actually pretty easy to do honestly. And you know,
yeah. I mean, you could be in here making a visible touchpoint report and it could be any touch point ever in the entire life cycle contains content. Oh my God. Our content is like, you know, pulling it off the charts for the revenue. Right. Um, this is an example, but when I say basic. The main touchpoint, I think people need to be con like focused on is the conversion source.
Um, and when I say conversion source it, I don't care what touch it is. I don't care if it's the first touch or the 17th touch. All I care about is it's the hand raised touch. It's the, it's the point where they raise their hand. And I want to know what happened there. Where did that come from? And then I want to be able to track that, map that to the opportunity and down.
That's the main thing I'm looking at when we look at with our clients. And of course we're still looking at, okay, what's driving net new acquisition of first touch. Like how does their first touch compare? Do we see any tech trends, uh, first touch for like all of these in this bucket? Do we see any other.
I think that we could pull out of the data that we get that could be useful, but I have seen so many wild attribution models and I am asking basic questions. I think that posts, there's like three basic questions where I was like, if you can't answer these like very quickly, like you're, over-complicating
Right. And one of those questions was like, where are your demo requests coming from? For example, Hopefully you have a report that shows you that, that isn't too complicated, but if you don't, I think that's a great place to start to your point.
And I, most, most people, or most companies can say, oh, how many, how many con or how many, um, contacts did we get our leads contacts whenever you work out of, um, we got this mini demo requests, that's their, their first touch.
Yeah, but how, like how many form fills, how many total people filled out this. And they're like, oh, well, there, there are known contacts. So that would be like last campaign, but that field like updates and like isn't locked. So I'm like, okay, just let me get into the automation system. I'm in to see like how many people filled out this form this month
and just, you know, I don't, again, don't care what touch it is.
Um, we want to understand, like how many people asked to talk to our sales team. This. You can't answer that. And then you can't answer how many of those went to meetings? How many of those went to qualified opportunities? That's a problem. Um, and I think it's just because like, and I'm guilty of it too.
Like, I mean, I am a Marketo, visible girl back from like 10 years ago, you know, like I loved it even when visible was just starting, I was one of the. A company that was one of their first customers. And I was like, I love this. This is amazing. But I just think over time it's changed. So, uh,
yeah, I think in the meantime, since they came out, communities have just blown up.
I mean, not that they didn't exist before, but to your point around slack, I can't even tell you how many slack communities I'm in. And half of the posts are saying, what's a great attribution tool. What's a good tool for this. That just didn't exist. Five, 10 years ago, people were following a little bit of a more linear buying journey versus just doing a lot of their own research.
everything on the, or most, a lot of things on the internet were on your own domain, right there. We're in your own website, your own domains owned. So you could get that data. Well, now, how many apple applications do you have on your iPhone? Like, um, that don't serve ads. Some of them, the applications obviously do serve ads, but, um, how do you get information?
And you don't go to the company's website anymore. I'm just going to ask community, or if I have a question about Chili Piper, or would it be like Tara LinkedIn or email, like, Hey, here's my question? Can you answer it? Or someone they know that uses the product. Um, you're not going to go to the website. I mean, you might go eventually to the website when you're ready to convert, um, or look at pricing or something, but more, not in the discoverability phase anymore.
I would say more when you're ready to actually like research your buying decision. Um, almost like buyer enablement.
Yeah. I think the difference now too, is, you know, that when you do put up your hand and say, Hey, I'm ready. You're not going to get a break here, but I'm being hounded by someone. Who's trying to show you the tool.
So you're going to do as much research as you can outside of their domain, because when you're ready and you raise your hand, you know, like, okay, this is it. My schedule is going to be busy with demos now. So
a thousand percent and like, you know, it's kind of also on B2B created that environment. Like how many eBooks have you followed up?
And then you have the email, you got the phone calls, like everybody. Does not want that because they are not ready for that. So he, and so I, you know, I believe you shouldn't be getting your content anymore, but, um, that's a whole, you know, that's another
episode. Yeah. That's another fun topic, but a whole other episode.
And one thing just really quickly is on the topic of just that touch before the demo request. We're actually shifting our model into what we're calling booking context. So instead of what caused them to fill out any form on our website, which is a little bit of what we're doing now, which isn't perfect and doesn't give us great insights.
We're really looking at what happened right before they booked that call, whether it was like the channel, the campaign source, just figuring out how granular we can get. And I think we'll hopefully have a lot of insights to share once we do roll that out. But I think that's a new approach that we've heard a couple of other people thinking about too, where to your point, nobody needs to track 20, 20, 25 different touch points, but we need to know what caused them to raise their hand.
And what was that final thing that really moves the needle? So curious to see how that self reported data will line up with what we're finding in.
I mean between that and your self production, ration field, you're going to be, he hasn't written chill on it. Yeah, I hope so.
Yeah. That's the goal is to figure out what we can learn from and teach people.
So great. Glad to hear quick samples improve on that. That's important to no, that's great. Um, anything else on just the topic of multitouch attribution? I feel like we covered it pretty.
You know, eat, people think that like, I don't know, everybody at refined labs is like, so against attribution. It's like, we're not, we just like need to have another way to capture dark social attribution.
Um, and I think like many things and marketers, myself included are like, not even attribution could be like campaign set up and your ad platforms. Like we love to just over-complicate things. I think that's like been bred into us. Um, just simplify when you can, uh, simplify, simplify, simplify, I would
say, I think that's great advice.
And if you, if you're simplifying and also asking people, well, what pushed them to book a demo and trying to do that again and again, I think, yeah, you'll be set up for success. So that's great advice. Cool. Well, before I let you go, I do have a couple of quick fire questions for you. If you don't mind. So first one, is there another market you follow that our listeners should go follow and take advice from?
I mean, I think Nick, Nick Bennett is doing a great job. Um, talking about community and personal brand. He's got a community that's really cool. Um, I mean, honestly, if you wanna like know anything about Tik TOK, it's like a shameless plug for Todd. Uh, he works at Revit last night, the guy. So talented at Tik TOK and like his strategy around it.
It's wild. Um, I I've already talked to him about trying to take, and it's just, it's on my list, but I have not made enough priority yet. Um, those are the two rent first two that come to mind, but, oh my gosh. There's so many. I feel like I could give you like an Excel sheet.
No, those are fun ones. That's good.
It's good to have something fun to follow up with. Um, and what's an under the radar either channel or tactic that your team is really loving or seeing lots of success with right now.
I don't know if it's like super under the radar, but video content, content, specifically like podcasts clips. Um, we've been putting the paid spend behind that and like getting those like guaranteed views.
Um, and that's been working really well. There's some of our highest, uh, And engagement, you know, from view rate and engage video engagement rate, um, with some of our clients. So it's really kind of helping to drive their also their podcast acquisition strategy, um, you know, linking, linking straight to the podcasts that you could listen to it.
That one's a good one. And then, um, literally like today, uh, we just rolled it out. Uh, LinkedIn, you can now do story sizes on images on LinkedIn. So take up more of your, more of the feed. Um, and it it's designed for like a mobile placement, uh, but we've been taking some of our Facebook story creative for some of our clients and just rotating that into LinkedIn to see if we can get, um, more engagement off that place.
Um, because the Instagram story placement gets by far, probably the highest engagement off of the, that placement of Facebook or Instagram. Not, not including video, but like more static places. So we're transferring that over to LinkedIn, just to see, um, just see how those safely can get more, more of that feed taken up, you know?
a fun experiment. I haven't touched LinkedIn stories yet on paid, so I'll have to check that out.
Yeah. It's not on the LinkedIn stories. Um, not like the sponsored ones, but you can take, um, of course I'm forgetting the actual image size, but it's the same size as a bigger log. It's the mobile, the mobile.
And he put that in and it'll get served on mobile for LinkedIn. So it literally takes up the entire phone when you're scrolling. Um, so we're just testing that against the, against the vertical, like square size, the 10 80 by 10 80 size.
Great. And lastly, where can our audience go to find out more about you or follow your content?
What channel are you most active on?
I mean, no surprise here, LinkedIn. Yeah. You want an answer so far? I think waterfall on LinkedIn. You can find me there and um, maybe one day I'll be on tape. That's a, that's a golfer. I'm seeing it on this podcast. I'll actually have to do it because people will call me out now.
Great. We'll keep an eye out for that. Thank you so much, Sidney. Thanks a lot for your time. And thanks everybody for listening today. Hope you can join us on the next episode of demand gen chat.